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#266543 - 06/25/12 11:11 PM Re: The Metal Thread [Re: bkdethrap]
LucifrinImperium Offline
General of Gore 2nd command - peesh infantry

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Death metal is kind of a vague term for your point. There are lots of death metal subgenres. And once again there are multiple ways to be technical once again not just mastery of a particular instrument. There are multiple ways to be technical with 1 instrument as well.

Death metal is technical. Go learn about the progression of metal music. One of the clear indicators in progression is the advancement of technicality. Heavy metal giving birth to thrash, thrash to death etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl1yCKOQQO8
^See the above? It's on Malmsteem standards or better as far as shredding goes. Not to mention Malmsteem doesn't play for 9 minutes straight on one track. On top of that the structure is different, plus time changes. There are tons of details that define technicality.


The argument for technicality is a objective one, if you want to argue music with someone the only really objective things as far as you can argue is technicality and maybe lyrics. The rest is completely subjective.
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#266545 - 06/25/12 11:16 PM Re: The Metal Thread [Re: LucifrinImperium]
LucifrinImperium Offline
General of Gore 2nd command - peesh infantry

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 9207
Loc: Nowhere indefinitely
There is no logical argument you can present to knock it down. That's basically a fact, unless you are discussing a specific band or something.


Got Be'lakor's Of Breath and Bone in the mail, great album.
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#266555 - 06/26/12 12:18 AM Re: The Metal Thread [Re: LucifrinImperium]
J0shuaKane Offline
Depraved Rabbi

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 966
Originally Posted By: LucifrinImperium

i did not feel any flow to this. it was very technical though.

have you ever heard sourced atonomy by buckethead? well, the song doesnt have a name, none of the songs in the 13 cd set do, but anyway...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxmUUSVZlqQ

also, necrophagist or necrophagia?

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#266557 - 06/26/12 12:26 AM Re: The Metal Thread [Re: LucifrinImperium]
bkdethrap Offline
a bowl of chili looking feces

Registered: 02/11/09
Posts: 82
Originally Posted By: LucifrinImperium
The argument for technicality is a objective one, if you want to argue music with someone the only really objective things as far as you can argue is technicality and maybe lyrics. The rest is completely subjective.

There is no logical argument you can present to knock it down. That's basically a fact, unless you are discussing a specific band or something.


Do you mean the link you posted or the music as a whole?

This is what I thought of the link:
There are Yngwie style moments but I dont think they are as good but then again I'm a huge Yngwie fan though, so it's hard for me to not compare every sweeped apreggio I hear with Malmsteens. Putting that aside you can see there is definitley technical music going on there, aint no numbskull shit, the song sounds good, the only thing that I dont like is that (honestly I dont know name for it) may be the time signature being changed? how they accent or may even be the chord choices made in the song? are just dissonant to my ears, only thing that throws me off but I do notice it a lot when I hear death metal so might just be part of the genre(im guessing). Thats the only thing I can hate on from that link, vocals actually werent that bad (for someone who isnt a fan of this style)

It still doesnt hit me like the old stuff though

Back to Yngwie

This is 9 minutes of him shredding(no need for a band haha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrLCteQlkUY

Now this is 8 1/2 minutes from his debut album so he was a baby doing 9 minute songs with practically no band considering he carries pretty much all his songs on his own.
Icarus' Dream Suite Op 4

Just throwing that in because you can't fuck with Yngwie. Past present or future, they are still trying to play like him, The man is a God.


Edited by bkdethrap (06/26/12 12:30 AM)
Edit Reason: To add a fucken ? mark
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#266561 - 06/26/12 01:11 AM Re: The Metal Thread [Re: bkdethrap]
LucifrinImperium Offline
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There are people who can outshred yngwie, a lot of them. That 9 minute arpeggios from hell video isn't a track, it's made up of a lot of things.

Dude I own Rising Force, it's a good album. I really love Icarus Dream Suite, great track, my favorite on there. But still if you are talking pure technicality Yngwie is not top of the world anymore, and hasn't been for sometime. He is great in his particular zone. The guitars maybe technical but the music itself seems to me very simple.

First of all in Rising Force the guitar's are the technical aspect everything else is pretty basic, drum patterns are simple as fuck. Pretty sure the structures are simple. I can't count time, sometimes I can guess if it isn't in 4/4.
Technicality encompasses so many things it's hard to narrow down. I mean for starters dissonance is used in music on purpose. It's just another aspect of composition. When you listen to Yngwie you know what you are getting it's a pretty straightfoward music for the majority. Neo-classical shred.

Another thing Death Metal vocals are not just some simple growling thrown over the track. It takes talent to emit some of the voices, plus the placement, phrasing, is musical in itself as well. Vocals are layered as well.

If you listen to death metal, you will hear a lot of different types of shit going on, like maybe latin drumming or jazz influence, middle eastern sounding shit. I love Heavy Metal but there is much experimentation within the Death Metal context.

I'm not really a person who should be discussing this because i'm really uneducated in music, I don't play a instrument either.

One thing tho I can speak on is that lyrically, it's usually more intelligent. For instance Yngwie Malmsteem lyrics seem to me retarded. Burning ships and who knows what. I have to say most of the best lyrics I have ever read are typically found in extreme metal, they are much more verbose and the subject matter isn't dumb bullshit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH7BzCyuYyY


Dude I'm not even a fan of straight foward death metal I just don't dig the sound, but I do respect it. There are tons of people more educated and experienced than me, that praise it and plenty of band's I like are influenced by it. There are tons of types of Death metal, you have Death Metal, Brutal Death Metal, Blackened Death Metal, Progressive Death Metal, Melodic Death Metal, Symphonic Death Metal etc.. etc..
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#266562 - 06/26/12 01:33 AM Re: The Metal Thread [Re: bkdethrap]
J0shuaKane Offline
Depraved Rabbi

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 966
yngwie doesn't have much range. he is very accomplished, playing with the japanese orhestra and G3 and alot of his stuff in the 80s is timeless, but he is no steve vaie. or especially buckethead.

but you cant really get buckethead until you listen to at least 20 of his albums. everything he makes is totally different. i mean...
Quote:
a discography of works by Buckethead, which currently consists of 36 studio albums, 4 special releases, 1 extended play, 2 demo tapes, 3 video releases, 2 DVDs, 3 music videos and 10 songs not released on albums. This, adding up to 45. Also, since 1994, Buckethead has released 6 studio efforts under the anagram of Death Cube K. He has totaled 61 works with other bands and artists. The total number of works with other artists and himself is 106. His compilation albums and guest appearances total 98. In total, Buckethead has been involved with 204 different projects.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckethead_discography

here is a small sample of his works...

well, i posted a bunch of links but deleted them. you know what youtube is. type in buckethead and look at his lives, he has limitless techniques and imagination. songs like elephant man's alarm clock, or the whole welcome to bucketheadland is just insane. then songs like soothsayer, too many humans, or i love my parents are emotional like nothing else ever written. i used to get laughed at alot because i listen to classical music so im not just some uneducated jackass.

malmsteen is awesome, but he gets owned at each of the trio songs preformed at G3

rockin in the free world

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6yZDHUxXLY

voodoo chile, malmsteen has impresive vocals on this one!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4CTF061EDY



and if you think malmsteen is god, you must have never seen stevie ray vaughn play

texas flood long version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWLw7nozO_U

malmsteen is good but his strictly neo-classical style limits him.

one of my favorites by malmsteen

far beyond the sun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK0rvReE-4c


he also has an interesting interview where he says america doesn't need to change. he is swedish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZiWIdgLS-Y part 1 of 3
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#266563 - 06/26/12 01:38 AM Re: The Metal Thread [Re: LucifrinImperium]
J0shuaKane Offline
Depraved Rabbi

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 966
Originally Posted By: LucifrinImperium
There are people who can outshred yngwie, a lot of them. That 9 minute arpeggios from hell video isn't a track, it's made up of a lot of things.

Dude I own Rising Force, it's a good album. I really love Icarus Dream Suite, great track, my favorite on there. But still if you are talking pure technicality Yngwie is not top of the world anymore, and hasn't been for sometime. He is great in his particular zone. The guitars maybe technical but the music itself seems to me very simple.

First of all in Rising Force the guitar's are the technical aspect everything else is pretty basic, drum patterns are simple as fuck. Pretty sure the structures are simple. I can't count time, sometimes I can guess if it isn't in 4/4.
Technicality encompasses so many things it's hard to narrow down. I mean for starters dissonance is used in music on purpose. It's just another aspect of composition. When you listen to Yngwie you know what you are getting it's a pretty straightfoward music for the majority. Neo-classical shred.

Another thing Death Metal vocals are not just some simple growling thrown over the track. It takes talent to emit some of the voices, plus the placement, phrasing, is musical in itself as well. Vocals are layered as well.

If you listen to death metal, you will hear a lot of different types of shit going on, like maybe latin drumming or jazz influence, middle eastern sounding shit. I love Heavy Metal but there is much experimentation within the Death Metal context.

I'm not really a person who should be discussing this because i'm really uneducated in music, I don't play a instrument either.

One thing tho I can speak on is that lyrically, it's usually more intelligent. For instance Yngwie Malmsteem lyrics seem to me retarded. Burning ships and who knows what. I have to say most of the best lyrics I have ever read are typically found in extreme metal, they are much more verbose and the subject matter isn't dumb bullshit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH7BzCyuYyY


Dude I'm not even a fan of straight foward death metal I just don't dig the sound, but I do respect it. There are tons of people more educated and experienced than me, that praise it and plenty of band's I like are influenced by it. There are tons of types of Death metal, you have Death Metal, Brutal Death Metal, Blackened Death Metal, Progressive Death Metal, Melodic Death Metal, Symphonic Death Metal etc.. etc..


yngwie doesnt do the lyrics. they should just be ignored.

you underestimate good growling though. gurge from lord gore makes the craziest fucking disgusting sounds ever, and they sound raw as fuck. corpse grinder could never replace chris barnes.

this is my favorite band's newest single, listen to it and tell me what you think of it, if you would...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG3U0tsiMwo
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#266566 - 06/26/12 03:52 AM Re: The Metal Thread [Re: J0shuaKane]
bkdethrap Offline
a bowl of chili looking feces

Registered: 02/11/09
Posts: 82
I just threw in that nine minute thing because I was actually listening to it when I read your post about the 9 minute songs
then I noticed Icarus is pretty close so posted that.

I know there are people that can outshred yngwie, but not everyone who can outshred him is better than him.
one thing is true, there wouldn't be shred without Yngwie,
the closest thing was EVH being called a shredder
before Yngwie came along and showed us what shred really was.
I am def biased but that isn't opinion, thats a fact.
Technical death metal or any technical guitar playing guitar player will tell you that Yngwie is an influence
and if not on them directly, usually he is an ifluence of the player that they are influenced by.
Yngwie's influence runs deep because he was the guitar player who opened the door past the pentatonic scales,
he isn't the only one but he was the first that was that proficent.

I hear you though it is him who is technical not so much his songs. Don't agree with you on lyrics though, Yngwie has always had top notch singers, Joe lynn Turner, Jeff Scott Soto, Mike Viscera, Ripper etc....

One thing you said I didnt get,maybe you said it wrong but It sounded like you said you understand the timing of songs that are not in 4/4 but that seems weird because 4/4 is the most common time hence it being refered to as "common time" and all the others are harder for human ears to decipher aka they dont resemble our heartbeat.

As for the Vocals in death metal I am sure it takes skill of some sort but I dont really think they put much thought into what key they are growling in, I mean come on. That being said it should still be respected I mean Nathan explosion voice is Brutal

Oh and as for death metal drumming, I definitly like that, Love that damn double bass. Very experimental with different genres like you said, but I dont know if the other thing you said is true because think of Sabbath Ward and Geez are known more as like a jazz rhythym section and thats Sabbath, which is Heavy Metal so I guess its just each band is different, depends on the collective talent.

(none of the above was to be taken in an argumentitive way)
in fact I agree with most, just some points I wanted to make, also if you really can hear the odd time sigs more thank common I think you should pick up an istrument maybe youll be a virtuoso, fuck you never know


Edited by bkdethrap (06/26/12 03:55 AM)
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#266570 - 06/26/12 04:20 AM Re: The Metal Thread [Re: bkdethrap]
LucifrinImperium Offline
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Na I can't really count time but sometimes I attempt to when i'm particularly interested in a certain section, sometimes it's clear something isn't in common time. Pretty sure anyone can learn to count time it's not uber complex. I know Necro can and he might know some theory. Forensic Pathology is in some odd time you can hear it. Which is interesting to note because most of hip-hop just does not seem to give a fuck about musical progression.

There would be shred with out Yngwie, that's basically a fact. Not taking anything away from him he is dope. The thing about Yngwie is he has a lot of filler albums. Albums that simply do not rank high, or aren't progressive as an artist. Same shit dif album some better some worse.

Yea Sabbath are gods I def love Ward and Butler.
If you listen to Steve Flynn from Atheist he has some Jazz shit going on, Richard Christy on Sound of Perseverance might have some latin beats. Meshuggah is obviously well known for polyrhythms.

Yngwie lyrics typically suck, no debate man. Burning ships and viking subject matter cannot fuck with philosophical shit and even if it could it still woudn't be written as eloquent a lot death metal lyrics.


Ride The Lightning in Full:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-165qQIplh4
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#266572 - 06/26/12 04:24 AM Re: The Metal Thread [Re: bkdethrap]
bkdethrap Offline
a bowl of chili looking feces

Registered: 02/11/09
Posts: 82
JoshuaKane

There are too many gods in music to count, SRV is another,
but I dont know why you say yngwie is too stuck in neoclassical,
Neoclassical like any genre has endless possibilities,
I mean they didnt stop playing the blues until someone came
and played something else, and even then blues players
still played the blues, it's the new players that go
and do the new thing.
Can't teach an old dog new tricks I guess, but then again why would we want to hear the inventor of the Neoclassical genre to play something else, like saying Necro switch up your style to the next thing instead of death rap.

Yngwie is definitley versed in the blues too, he played it copying Blackmore all through being a kid until he devoloped his own style.

Another thing is he does not get outshined at G3 at all,
looked to me like he was playing the more exciting parts using
regular guitar technique, on a strat, which doesnt have a reliable floating trem
as Vai and Satch do so he couldnt excite the crowd with whammy bar licks as crazy as theirs, not to say that Vai and Satch wouldnt wow a crowd with just their playing but they do use it pretty loose.
The strat is also
equiped with single coil pickups not humbuckers ala Vai/Satch's ,
they also play 24 fret guitars, and another thing is
Yngwie had to tune to E standard when he plays in Eb
so I dont think he gets outshined, I think he shined fine
for a guy who had to play with two other Gods with all those circumstances and differences.

I Just don't like that people always
shit on Yngwie's part in the G3 trio preformance
you have to realize that there were other things that
came into play.


And one last thing I forgot to add is that Vai and Satch run G3 so they can also probably trade some musical ideas of what they are going to do beforehand.


Edited by bkdethrap (06/26/12 04:44 AM)
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